dumped a MBZ C230K Sport for a S40 T5 and loving it

[bhchan]

subject pretty much says it all, but here are some more highly subjective impressions about the two cars (a MBZ 2000 C230K Sport edition vs. 2004.5 S40 T5)

the extra horsepower (218 vs 175-ish) is very nice, even with geartronic, which I've heard isn't as quick on the up-take as a manual transmission (never drove a manual myself, so I find that it doesn't matter.)  The automatic is good enough for me.

The S40 T5 drives like a BMW.  It has a more rigid ride and feels sportier, even compared to my old Sports edition Kompressor.  You can feel every bump on the road, which is definitely either good or bad depending on your personal tastes.  I find it a lot more enjoyable and fun to drive, compared to the more 'cushy' softer feel of the C230K.

The two cars are approximately the same size, interior and exterior.  Trunk space is similar, though the split fold-down back seats of the S40 will eventually help (when I go buy stuff at IKEA, for instance)  The one place where the S40 compares unfavorably to my old C230K is on the driver-side leg room.  There's a plastic 'bump' on the left side where the clutch would be, where I usually rest my left foot.  This bump sticks out much too far for comfort and I can no longer stretch my left leg out as much as before.  (pushing the seat back further isn't really an option, since then I won't be able to control the pedals with my right foot)

All the extra comfort auxilliaries are nice.  Feels better than the C230K... audio sounds better.  AC runs cold faster.  Floating Center Console is just cool to look at...  Having a CD player standard is nice. (I didn't upgrade my C230K with a CD player)

In the week and half that I've owned my S40, I've gotten numerous comments from people at the parking lot.  One lady came up to me to bemoan her choice in swapping a volvo for an infinity and wants back, eyeing my S40 with obvious envy.

In short, I love the new S40 and definitely give it two thumbs up.

[MZ6ZoomZoom]

Good to hear.  Ya know, my only real beef with the S40 thus far is that it's FWD.  I love the car, but I've sworn off FWD

As for MB/BMW/etc... they make great cars, but one thing I will never understand is why they're always so far behind in the HP wars.

[bhchan]

Ya know, my only real beef with the S40 thus far is that it's FWD.  I love the car, but I've sworn off FWD

*confused*  I thought FWD is better for traction and handling and this is my first FWD, so I'd like to hear more about your opinion on this, if you don't mind.

As for MB/BMW/etc... they make great cars, but one thing I will never understand is why they're always so far behind in the HP wars.

One thing that really turned me off from MBZ (I've owned 3 and my parents are/were pretty loyal MBZers) recently is that at Penske, where we were long time customers, their service had gone way down (they dared yelled at their customers for their mistake, even making racist comments to my parents, claiming that they 'did not understanding English'.)  Not only were they rude, but also inept.  Two weeks after getting my fuel gauge serviced because it kept dropping to zero (took them 4 working days to get my car back to me), my car ran out of fuel because the new gauge was also misreading... unfortunately, in this case, it gave the impression that I still had a quarter of a tank left.  Two weeks later, I finally got my car back.  I have other horror stories about Penske West Covina, but this is a Volvo site, so I better cool down.

hopefully, volvo service is more competant and customer-focused.

[MZ6ZoomZoom]

Ya know, my only real beef with the S40 thus far is that it's FWD.  I love the car, but I've sworn off FWD

*confused*  I thought FWD is better for traction and handling and this is my first FWD, so I'd like to hear more about your opinion on this, if you don't mind.

Oh as this site grows (and if you check out our Mazda3 site) I'm sure you'll see PLENTY in relation to RWD vs FWD.  But as a summary, since you seem to be rather untechnical, I'm assuming? :

FWD has the advantage of you being able to literally point the car in a direction and have it pull you there - sometimes especially an advantage in the winter.  However, a FWD car is putting a lot of strain on teh front wheels - they must power the car, AND provide steering capabilities.  A RWD car splits these tasks.  Also the steering feel is very different.

The other big thing is that as you accellerate, the effective weight of your car gets pushed towards the rear, so the rear tires have more grip - so better ability to power the car, if RWD.

That's a very simplistic explination, but I'm all drugged up right now (had my wisdom teeth out a couple days ago) so you'll have to forgive me.

As for MB/BMW/etc... they make great cars, but one thing I will never understand is why they're always so far behind in the HP wars.

hopefully, volvo service is more competant and customer-focused.

I think service varies greatly from dealer to dealer - although MB overall should be of very high quality, it sounds like you've had some pretty bad experiences with them.  Hopefully Volvo does treat you better!

Now get us some pics!

[bhchan]

since you seem to be rather untechnical, I'm assuming?

well, just with cars.

FWD has the advantage of you being able to literally point the car in a direction and have it pull you there - sometimes especially an advantage in the winter.  However, a FWD car is putting a lot of strain on teh front wheels - they must power the car, AND provide steering capabilities.  A RWD car splits these tasks.  Also the steering feel is very different.

I've definitely noticed the difference in steering... we seem to tend to understeer right now.

That's a very simplistic explination, but I'm all drugged up right now (had my wisdom teeth out a couple days ago) so you'll have to forgive me.

Hope you get better soon... and remember to bite down 'hard' on the gauss... when I got my bottom two removed, I failed to bite down... blood kept flowing... woke up with a mouth full of half-clotting blood... very nasty and gross, to say the least.  So yeah, bite down hard so the blood flow stops.

Now get us some pics!

Will do!  Where do you suggest I upload them?

[MZ6ZoomZoom]

Now get us some pics!

Will do!  Where do you suggest I upload them?

If you don't have your own place to upload to, we do provide a meg of space to users here:
http://www.mazda3forums.com/gallery

eventually that'll be integrated into volvoS40club as well, but we haven't gotten around to it yet  But it should work just fine, just gotta use the 3forums url.

[wmiller19]

It is fairly common knowledge why the auto industry went to FWD: It's easier and cheaper. That's the whole reason.

A benefit of FWD is that the weight of the engine and drivetrain are over the drive wheels, making driving in snow easier for the marginally competent of us drivers, and the auto industry spent millions in ad money convincing the general public that they're better off with it even as they were shoving them down our throats.

FWD cars really stink when it comes to high-performance driving, either on the street or on a road course. FWD cars have a horrible front-to-rear weight bias, making them nose-heavy pigs who plow through corners whilst exibiting gross understeer akin to that of a John Deer tractor. And having the front tires try to both steer and propel the car results in a miserable compromise of both to say the least. Granted, most people neither have the skills nor the intent to push the limits of a FWD car on the street. Or a RWD car for that matter. And todays front-drivers are not as bad as those of years gone by. Fortunately, there are still RWD cars being made (and more models coming...gee, I wonder why? ) for those of us who crave performance in our cars and actually use it. Yes, I'm currently driving a FWD car (my Mazda 3), as it works well in my current 'starving student' mode. But this is my first, and likely my last FWD car. Call it personal preference.

That's why I have already decided that if I do get a S40 when I start working at a dealer, mine will have a M66 tranny and AWD (available later this year).   :D

[MZ6ZoomZoom]

OK a lot of what wmiller just posted is extreme examples, but in essence he's right

There is a lot of ways you can cut down on the steering issue (Sway bars, lowering, etc) but, as wmiller and myself pointed out earlier, there's really nothing you can do about two things:
1) your front wheels doing all the work
2) weight shift (as you accellerate, grip moves towards rear tires which sucks for fwd cars)

[wmiller19]

Wasn't trying to be extreme. But after racing nothing but RWD cars, and then attempting to drive a FWD fast in a Solo I event, I was left with a less-than-desirable impression.

Seriously, FWD cars work fine for normal driving, under normal conditions. I however, am not your average driver, nor do I drive like one.

[Mercenario]

My only complaint is the time it takes for the turbo to spool up, but when it finally does   (for a Volvo that is). Other than that, I'm a happy driver. We'll just have to wait and see for long time problems *knocking on wood*.

[MZ6ZoomZoom]

Is the spool up really that bad? (I haven't driven it yet)

[holeydonut]

Good to hear.  Ya know, my only real beef with the S40 thus far is that it's FWD.  I love the car, but I've sworn off FWD

Eh, I don't understand... what brought this on?  I mean, you did buy a Mazda6; I don't get it...

In any event, I think the majority of consumers would appreciate a FWD over a RWD just because few people track their cars and test their lap times on a road course.  Honestly, I haven't heard a single person (other than one who reads Car and Driver too much) complaining about torque steer or understeer in a daily conversation.

It's good to hear that the S40 T5 is performing on par or better than a C230 though

[MZ6ZoomZoom]

Good to hear.  Ya know, my only real beef with the S40 thus far is that it's FWD.  I love the car, but I've sworn off FWD

Eh, I don't understand... what brought this on?  I mean, you did buy a Mazda6; I don't get it...

$$$$

In the S40's price range there's a lot of RWD though.

[kamend1]

I really like the opinions MZ6ZoomZoom and wmiller19 have posted around all the forums. I believe you are completely correct about RWD and grip and steering associated with it. Otherwise, I can't imagine why top-end manufacturers like BMW and Mercedes will keep doing it.

But I want to extend the discussion.

Iwould tend to disagree with you about the experience with stock RWD car vs a stock FWD car on the road based on my experience and that of many of my friends. While neither of us probably have your driving skills and mechanical knowledge, it is still experience. Back in 1996 when I lived in Bulgaria (I am originally from there) I drove a 1988 Peugeout 405 with 1.9 carburetor engine with about 110 hp and FWD and my father drove a 1990 (or thereabouts) 2.3 liter fuel-injected Mercedes 190E RWD. In Bulgaria people drive like much elsewhere in Europe. Fast (even incosiderate) speed on the highway and on two-way roads. The 405 could beat the crap out of the 190E in acceleration (I have driven both cars extensively). The Peugeot used to take corners on the mountain roads in a way the 190E could only dream of. In short, I think the Mercedes E class of that age was the first sign that Germans are dropping the ball big time- now Mercedes survives based on brand recognition from the past but has very little to show behind it.

Same with BMW. A friend of mine bought a 2000 750i in Fargo, North Dakota. He equipped it with brand new winter tires for the winter season. Still, that thing is undrivable on a slippery road. He has to drive like an old lady not to end up in the ditch somewhere. I think the last solution was about 200-300 pounds of weights (those used by weight-lifters on the bench press) in the trunk. I think finally that pushed the back end back to allow the expensive "winter" tires start getting some grip. Same with a Beamer 325i that a friend drives in Connecticut. Feels very good during the summer, god help him during the winter!

So, my personal experience driving both types of vehicles makes me think that the poorer steering and grip that of the FWD has is far been outweighed by the advantages of it and is compensated by new suspension, traction control, and other mechanical solutions implemented in vehicles. And that is the only reason why BMW and Mercedes scrambled to come up with the 'x' (like in 330xi) and the '4Matic'. BTY, in Minnesota it is Volvos, Saabs and Audis that are prevalent over BMW and MBZ (plus the whole gamut of FWDs like Acura, VW, Lexus - but I don't count them in the same class).

VIVA THE S40 T5 AWD, though. I love it!!!

[wmiller19]

None of the cars you describe are even remotely defined as 'sports cars', but it sounds like sport driving is not something you do, or consider a priority. Nothing wrong with that. And one's personal likes and dislikes are what we as people should consider in making a decision, about anything.

However, it has been proven time and time again, with imperical data, not opinions, that rwd cars are faster in any type of racing requiring the driver to turn the steering wheel right and left, than fwd cars. And it will likely always be that way until someone re-invents the laws of physics or at the very least comes up with a zero-mass (or at least reduced mass) engine for a front driver. They are still left with the front tires trying to steer and drive, whilest doing neither efficiently.

All wheel drive is another discussion altogether, but even those are not significantly faster (documented testing) than rwd cars, given professionals driving both cars. For normal everyday drivers, the awd is more forgiving of ignorance and plain stupidity, thereby allowing higher cornering speeds. Right up to the point of where physics kicks in and usually Bad Things happen then.

I learned to drive during the muscle car era, on polyglass tire'd, huge, overweight/undersprung, high horsepower, rwd cars.

 On snow.

Did it every year, without mishap. Maybe they just don't teach people how to drive anymore? Not sure, but then it's not something I should loose a lot of sleep over. People will be people.

[richbaker]

well i guess its not that bad of course it wont occur unless the damage is severe.